Official Luthiers Forum!

Bill... I see absolutely nothing wrong with playing favorites. Post all you want....   

And.. as far as your POV goes, I think it is entirely reasonable. In fact, I don't think that Sylvan's point was all that radical.

But... (and I suspect I am not alone in this) I am just not in a position where I just can do spray finishing because of my physical surroundings.

I kid you not at one point the Dublin police had an arrest warrant out for me because I did not have a bush in front of my air conditioner....      what do you think they are going to think about me spraying VOC's in the yard? The neighbors see me out there in a full respirator and a total body suit and they begin to wonder exactly what I am subjecting them to.   

So spary finishing @ home is something that isn't going to happen. But it doesn't mean I don't WANT to do a first rate spray finish, or I don't want to understand every aspect of the craft.

The way I see it is this is a journey and it is not absolutely necessary to master every aspect of this craft at once. But I certainly take it very seriously and want to have a deep understanding and skills in the whole process.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I agree with you and Sylvan a 100% Bill, my first reaction was due to probably an old habit of low self estime combined to the fears of a influenceable newbie which probably tinted my first reading. But realizing that everyone here is acting out of generosity and kindness and good wishes for every newbie to develop his/her full potential, i do understand better now what was meant in the first place and agree totally with the intention of learning every single aspect of the build to become an accomplished luthier .

Yes, knowledge is power and i sure feel lucky to be here with you and sylvan and Mario and MichaelP, Bruce, Al Carruth...My bud Alain .Hesh. John MAYES....and everybody here for that matter. We have a wealth of information that is uncommon because of the quality of our fine people. I don't know much forums that give you this much, i feel energized every single time i log on here and you can see it by the number of posts i made in the last 2 months!

Regards

Serge

Bill
     I am in now way pissed off about you or ASIA so I will start a line on the right LOL ASIA is well worth the time and support.
John Hall
PS to be considered an artisan you better know all the process from start to finish.

Brock,

     I made mention of the geographical problem specifically to exempt you from my rant but, I'll still bet I could come over to your house and help you find a way to spray without anyone having a clue. My neighbor on the exaust side of my operation says he's never smelled it - his dog is a little cross-eyed at times however.

Serge,

     No reason to apologize for your earlier post at all. Sylvan can come across pretty "cut and dried" at times, and it may have been easy to take him the wrong way, but I knew exactly what he meant - you only cheat yourself if you do not strive to learn everything you CAN.

John,

     You're in the business of helping us to build more accurately, and more cost effectively... You know exactly how crucial it is for folks to understand every aspect of a build. And, thanks for your support.

     If I had my way, everyone would have the opportunity to start at the beginning and "learn" their way through the process step by step. But today, there is such a "smorgasboard" of information available that folks are beginning at all points in the process BUT the beginning, and then having to go back to pick up the finer points of previous stages. We really need to do something about that - create more opportunities - if we expect the craft to continually grow and mature.

      Bill     

Bill Moll38767.4764814815

[QUOTE=Bill Moll] Brock,

     I made mention of the geographical problem specifically to exempt you from my rant but, I'll still bet I could come over to your house and help you find a way to spray without anyone having a clue. My neighbor on the exaust side of my operation says he's never smelled it - his dog is a little cross-eyed at times however.
[/QUOTE]


I know, but I thought you might find it humorous to know about my arrest warrant.    What a bunch of nonsense....

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Here is how I see it.

I know how to do the whole process from start to finish. I have not done
the finish on the last 30 or so guitars I've built. First because I could feel
the effects of the Nitro on my lungs, and now because my shop will not
allow it (small commercial building in downtown) as well as I still don't
want to subject myself to the effects of the volatile chemicals. But I DO
know how to do it very well, and could do so at anytime if I wanted to.
I've finished more than 70 guitars of my own. As I mentioned before I do
think that everyone should, if possible, do it so that the they understand
the whole process.

From Sylvan's initial post he made it sound like if you don't always do
everything (within reason) that your simply not a Luthier. I think that is
hogwash. He subsequent post made it clear that he was more in line with
what I think. His first post came across as snobbish, but he clarified
himself and that's cool by me. I don't think finish is at all harder than the
woodworking on a guitar, but that's just me. I did enjoy seeing a guitar
start to shine when you spray them coats on. I did not enjoy the lots of
wet-sanding. I did enjoy buffing it all out to that beautiful sheen. I did
not enjoy breathing a little harder after spraying 30 coats of finish in one
day (3 coats per neck and body per day and 5 guitars per day).

Do I think myself any less of a Luthier that I sub my finishes out now?
Nope, and neither do my customers. I'm very much up front that I send
out the finish and I have NEVER had a single person object to it. In fact
they have always been very pleased with the results. I find the only
people who look down on us for subbing out finishes are our fellow
builders, and to me that's disappointing.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

John,

     You wrote - "I find the only people who look down on us for subbing out finishes are our fellow builders, and to me that's disappointing."

     I hope you didn't take my point that way. You have, obviously, learned the process well, and decided to subcontract that work for legitimate reasons. My only dissapointment is in folks who use subcontracting as a substitute for learning the procedure in the first place.

     And, the fact that you're selling a new finishing DVD speaks to the issue that you feel that that knowledge is important too.


                             !!EDIT !!

     Whoops! those are Robbie O'Brien's finishing DVDs - sorry about that.

     But I'll still bet you feel the knowledge is important.

     Bill


     
Bill Moll38767.5357175926

Absolutely I feel the finish is important information and very useful in the
whole equation of the tone of guitars, and instruments in general. Like I
said I think everyone should do it, if possible, at least a few times to get
an understanding of the process, but if someone chooses to subcontract
that out to someone of equal or superior skill in the area I don't see
anything wrong with it.

And no I was not talking about anyone specific but rather in general.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

So, have you learned anything? Did you question get answered? As you can see, we all feel it is important to learn the entire process of building guitars. If this is your first build, I totally understand the fear of doing the finish, I subbed out the finish on my first cause I was pretty sure I would not be able to do justice to my good woodworking (it was very good, astetically). But now, I've rigged up with an explosion proof fan and sort of spray booth and have the first guitar all sprayed and leveled, just waiting a bit more till I buff it out. I have to say that I realy enjoy the process and am glad that I have taken the plunge.

Now, if you (like me) for some reason desire to sub out the finish on your first, I think that is great, there are some very good finishers out there, BUT, please consider learning the process at some point, you won't be disapointed.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Great dog Hesh. What kind and how does it sound?

_________________
Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

I thought maybe that was his dust mask.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=John Mayes] Tony Ferguson will also do a nitro Finish. I had him use it on the neck of
my last Electric (pictured below). His number is 616-842-4114

Your last! Does this mean you'll never make another!

All kidding aside, John, I read your remarks later in the thread. I just had to undergo a rather lengthy (5 hour) training session for the use of various respirators including positive ventilation types (I will have to use one because of hazards associated with a customer of mine). Anyway, even though all contaminants are removed, there are some, such as possibly yourself who have problems with 1) breathing difficulties caused by the excessively dry air produced by the respirators and 2) some people tend to breath in an irregular manner causing an irritation in the throat (I tend to do this unless I think about it).

I mention this not to cause you to change your work flow but to point out that if the respirator (half-mask type I assume) is fitting properly, and the cartridges are good, then you are protected. The full hood types with positive airflow are especially good.

Regards, Steve

Here is why I do finish for others. How many times can a guy get a 12 string Mando a Uke and a Koa OM in the booth at the same time?

Addam Stark38767.9438310185

Or 10 Halfling's in the booth!





I love working on this stuff!

Thanks! And nice Yorkie! My folks have a little girl Yorkie, they are cool little dogs!

Hesh, i love yor dawg, can we see pics of the sides please ? You're gonna start hating me if i don't stop han could not resist teasing a good pal!

Addam, Nice work! I guess it is the positive side of your job!

Hey Addam, is that your sunburst on that mandolin? It sure is attractive.

John

Yes it's one of the bursts I do. The photos of this Mando I had were with my old camera so they are not the best. I will post some shot of a bunch burst sometime.

I am my own man, I will build guitars how I see fit, regardless of how anyone else feels about it.

As to wither I am a "luthier" or not, ask my clients. Its there opinion that matters most to me.
Although peer respect is very important to me, I have long since left the trail of what is right or wrong and am plowing my own path.

I think the question of wither you are or aren't a luthier has no answer. Its smacks of the dovetail M&T debate. Some one will always have an opinion and someone will always disagree, at some level.

Be yourself.

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I wish I had seen this thread before now!

It's funny the way reading words can be construed in different ways. I understood what Sylvan said in his initial post right away. It didn't seem snobbish to me, and made a lot of sense. But I've known him via luthier forums for years, and got to meet the man at ASIA this past year.

I would agree that to call oneself a Luthier, you really need to know everything about the craft, soup to nuts. No, you don't need to learn to make tuners or celluloid bindings. That's not the deal at all. But if you wish to call yourself something like a "Luthier" or even "Master Luthier", then you had better be able to back up the words with skill sets or risk being called something else by those who truly are "Luthiers" or worse, by customers.
Small wonder that the best in the craft advise people not to sell their first several instruments.
Be willing to learn patiently. Learning the long and hard way is often the best way, and certainly better than the fast way. There is no substitute for it.
I call myself a guitar maker. And even that I'm hesitant to say, because there is so much I don't know. Much of what I feel the need to know, I'm just beginning to start to touch the fringes of understanding of.
I've never shot a nitro finish. But I would really like to learn. Not that I would do it myself due to the health risks and the setup requirments. But I do know a talented gentleman who has a new spray booth near where I live. I could rent time in there if I really needed to.
I agree with Bill and Sylvan. Building an instrument is a process, and unless you understand all of it, and can master all of it, you can't really call yourself something you haven't earned the right to call yourslef.
I can't call myself a doctor, since I haven't completed the schooling to become one. Nor can I call myself a lawyer. Of course, I'm not sure I want that particular stigma, (no offense to anyone here who is one...) but that's beside the point.
There is nothing wrong with subbing out work, as long as you control the product. I know that some of the finest Luthiers out there use cnc'd parts...nothing wrong with that. They could easily make them by hand, but then would starve trying to make a living.
We all have to strike a balance when it comes to that end of it, but it is a pity if we don't at least try to learn all aspects of the craft.
We short-change ourselves if we don't. What is truly sad is when we don't see that.

There is always more to learn...embrace the opportunity while you can.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."